This interview with Tokimune Takeda Sensei, present headmaster of Daito-ryu Aiki Budo, was conducted at his home in Abashiri, Hokkaido in 1986 by Aiki News editor-in-chief Stanley Pranin. The son of Sokaku Takeda talks about aiki, sen and go no sen in Daito-ryu techniques, his father’s travels throughout Japan, and his role as successor to the art in this second and final installment.

Sensei, were police tactics taught while you were with the Police Department

At first arrest techniques were taught. Before these techniques were formulated however, we practiced jojutsu, because the policemen’s swords had been taken away from them and were later replaced, by order of the U.S. Army, with pistols.

Since there were no handcuffs in those days, we used a technique called the quick-rope technique, which enabled us to control a criminal and frisk him, while binding his hands and neck simultaneously with a rope.

When did you come to Abashiri [ Hokkaido]?

In 1945. In 1951 I joined the Yamada Fishery Company, and retired from that company at the age of sixty. It’s been ten years since then. I have travelled throughout the country and set up branch dojos. Sokaku only taught and did not establish branch dojos. I start out with a group that functions like an amateur club and then have them develop it into a branch with official representation. We now have 3,000 members, each of whom has a numbered membership card. These replace the attendance registers [kept by Sokaku Takeda before the war].

You built the Daitokan Dojo in about 1954?

1953. In Hokkaido our Daito-ryu affiliates are active. In the Osaka area a different school of Daito-ryu is active. In fact, the dojos are run by people who were formerly Sokaku’s students, and both his direct and indirect students can be found in the Osaka area. Those who are teaching in Kyushu can be said to be Sokaku’s “grandstudents.” Thus there are different characteristics to be found from district to district even among those who were Sokaku’s students. Their personalities are different and thus their techniques are different too. We practice with swords, but as you know, the other schools don’t teach sword work very much, do they? Our sword is Onoha Itto-ryu. You are not doing Aiki Budo unless you practice both sword and jujutsu, that is to say, unless you practice both Daito-ryu and Onoha Itto-ryu.

I see. That is why the name was changed from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu to Aiki Budo.

Ippondori is referred to as kogusoku in Onoha Itto-ryu, and a kodachi (short sword) is used. You thrust up from below when you are attacked by an opponent with a sword. This is the way ippondori is done in Daito-ryu. As an opponent swiftly attacks by grabbing you by the chest, you hold him down. The technique applies in situations where the enemy thrusts at you, and you control him. What is different from other schools is that you hold the opponent down using the knee. Then you grab the opponent’s hair in order to cut off his head. This is true Daito-ryu technique. You may wonder, “What meaning does this have in this day and age?” but it is basic. If you hold an opponent down with your knee, both of your hands are free. Then you can cut the throat. You must remain alert until then.

Daito-ryu teaching methods are completely different from those of other schools. Our techniques use real swords for serious combat. When Daito-ryu was used in the police department, the police gradually stopped practicing in this way. They just gently held the opponent down. Even during the Meiji era, the time was already past when people controlled their enemies in order to stab them and cut off their heads. However, the essence of Daito-ryu is to keep alert until you have cut the enemy’s throat. The thrust must be made immediately. We strictly teach Daito-ryu students these things. So, practice is violent, and a little different from other kinds of practices. It’s different from just practicing softly with aiki.

Could you explain in a little more detail about aiki?

Aiki is to pull when you are pushed, and to push when you are pulled. It is the spirit of slowness and speed, harmonizing your movement with your opponent’s ki. On the other hand, kiai is to push to the limit, while aiki never resists.

The term aiki has been used since ancient times, and not only in Daito-ryu. The ki in aiki is go no sen (response to an attack). Sen sen is to initiate the attack by grabbing the opponent and throwing him. Although this is the case in kendo as well, you are doomed to fail if you attack first. If you move first to cut your opponent, you will end up being beaten. So we should always use go no sen.

You are not supposed to cut an opponent. This is called katsujinken (live-giving sword). The opposite is called setsuninken (death-dealing sword), where you first evade an opponent’s attack, then eventually cut him down. This is go no sen. Sen sen is to attack first and win. This is winning with kiai. Almost all Itto-ryu techniques are go no sen. Various kendo forms (kata) also employ go no sen. You will definitely be beaten if you attack first.

Aiki is different from the victory of sen sen. It applies in situations of go no sen, such as when an opponent thrusts at you. Daito-ryu is all go no sen, in which you first evade your opponent’s attack and then strike or control him, and Itto-ryu is primarily go no sen. You attack because an opponent attacks you. Therein lies the essence of katsujinken and setsuninken. You block the attack when an opponent approaches; at his second attack you break his sword and save his life. This is katsujinken. When an opponent strikes at you and your sword pierces his stomach it is setsuninken. These two are the essence of the sword. What is important is the form of the swordsmanship.

Does the opponent ever attack first in Daito-ryu?

The techniques used by the police are jujutsu. You attack; it is not self-defense. Theirs must be an active jujutsu. Self-defense can be thought of as a victory of sen go. In the case of sword techniques, it is go no sen; you deflect an attack when the opponent strikes, or you evade the attack and then cut him. Go no sen does not work when a policeman arrests a criminal. He must attack to catch the criminal who is escaping. The policeman must initiate the attack. He cannot ask the criminal to grab him first. He must start with an attack, and control the opponent with kiai. Aiki applies to self-defense when an opponent attacks first. These two must not be confused. Thus, the police do not use the word aiki; it is just jujutsu. They fight with kiai, using a sen sen attack. Attack is kiai. Aiki, on the other hand, is go no sen. Policemen are permitted to attack first. This is why the police studied Daito-ryu, though these days the mixture of judo, kendo, aikido, etc., used by the police is usually referred to as taiho-jutsu (arrest techniques).

Aikido and Daito-ryu have different meanings. In Daito-ryu, once you have captured an enemy, you must finish him off with a second or even third technique. Techniques do not exist in isolation but are followed by second and third techniques.

You can’t do that unless you have studied the construction of the human body as a whole, can you?

That’s right. When the youngest grandson of the Emperor Seiwa, Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu, went to Oshu [the northeastern district of Japan], he studied the human anatomy through dissection, and this was the origin of Daito-ryu. He stayed at a place called Daito, and called himself Saburo of Daito. This is where the name Daito comes from. It was passed down through generations of the Takeda family, as we are also descendants of the Emperor Seiwa. Our techniques do not allow openings for our enemies.

You mentioned that modern policemen no longer practice conventional Daito-ryu but instead practice a combination of judo, karate and kendo.

Yes. Kendo is go no sen, and is a product of peaceful times having originated in the Tokugawa era [1603-1868]. The Jikishinkage-ryu, which Sokaku practiced, is sen sen. He practiced Yagyu-ryu as well. The sword style incorporated into Daito-ryu is Onoha Itto-ryu. Sokaku learned just about everything. There was very little he did not know. Swordsmen in the old days were not merely experts in swordsmanship. Training during the latter part of the Tokugawa and Meiji eras [1868-1912] required “ten-thousand men” (protective head-covering or mask worn during matches). One had to put on his men ten thousand times and to spend three years traveling around to various dojos to train. You put on your men and participated in sword matches. Each school has its own individual form, but regardless of style, everyone used the men. We no longer practice using men, because we practice only to learn forms. Modern-day kendo derived from Onoha Itto-ryu because of the popularity it shared with the Hokushin Itto-ryu; Sasaburo Takano of the former, and Takaharu Naito and Shusaku Chiba of the latter, are well known. The techniques of these two schools are the same even though the names are different. Until about 1910 there was no particular classification of forms, so the faculty of the Advanced Teacher Training School and the Butokukai [organization established in 1895 to promote and oversee martial arts] created forms to facilitate instruction. The forms of kendo as they are practiced today were established at that time.

Aiki sword doesn’t work unless your arms and legs are sufficiently effective. We talk about receiving when we use swords. You receive the attack as soon as the opponent draws his sword. You’ve got to have that kind of speed. As I have said repeatedly before, people in the old days had strong arms because they used swords. In Daito-ryu you must develop instantaneous arm movements. If the opponent thrusts, you control his arm using your knee to pin it. This is peculiar to Daito-ryu; no other school does this. The difference between Daito-ryu and judo is that we do not have one-on-one matches. Even situations with multiple attackers can be handled with your free arms because one attacker has been pinned under your knee.

This is the essence of Daito-ryu. If you hold an opponent down with your entire weight concentrated on your knee, the enemy cannot rise. This method is important. Each and every technique is lethal. None of the techniques give the opponent any openings. This is why judges and police practiced the art. Here [referring to a directory] is listed one judge who is a fifth dan in judo.

Sokaku taught students over ten-day periods. Did the content of his teaching differ from person to person according to each individual’s experience?

There were great differences. For instance, he taught the police how to pin the opponent without allowing him any openings; in other words, he taught them jujutsu. For ordinary people, he taught self-defense, or what to do if someone grabs you by the chest or hand. He taught go no sen.

Which did Morihei Ueshiba learn, the version taught to ordinary people, or the police jujutsu?

He was taught the version for ordinary people, more or less. In fact, the techniques for self-defense were similar to the arrest techniques.

How did Sokaku treat those who were learning kendo?

Sokaku taught wearing his men. In those days people trained for three years after having participated in ten thousand matches wearing their men. They say that after that a swordsman could then begin to understand how to grip a bamboo sword. If they practiced a little more, they would say, “I have practiced a little,” which meant in those days that a person was a grand master. That was one of the martial artists’ codewords. You could tell how many years of training a person had done by the way he gripped a bamboo sword, and they would say, “Ah! This one has worn his men ten thousand times and has done three years of training around the country.” This kind of thing occurred at the beginning of the Meiji era. There was no dan-ranking system then.

There were no trains, either, so Sokaku traveled on foot. He would never know what kind of specialty techniques each dojo he visited might have. I heard that he would stand outside and call in to someone, and would never enter the place. Even when he returned to his own home, he would stand in front of the entrance and call me, shouting, “Sozaburo!” without even coming into the house.

I was physically weak during my infancy. I learned that the name Tokimune means a person who is intelligent, virtuous and courageous and who becomes a leader. Since my father thought that the name overpowered me, he changed it to Sozaburo. I went to elementary school using that name. Although my legal name is Tokimune, my fa-ther called me Sozaburo. So Sozaburo Tokimune Takeda is my original name. People often gave simple names to their children at first and then later re-named them after great figures.

Morihei Ueshiba also had about three different names. These name changes are very confusing to those who study history. When you inspect a family register, you sometimes find that the person is legally registered with a name different from what he is usually called. Was Sokaku’s home town legally in Fukushima Prefecture?

No, it’s here at my current address. He branched off from the main family in Aizu and changed his address to Hokkaido. He was lost for long periods during his training travels. He was even once reported to have disappeared. He never wrote a word to us, either. He was indeed an unusual person. His lifestyle was unusual, too. He was also shrewd in everything he did. When he started a lesson, he would point out at a glance the students who were rebellious towards authority from among more than one hundred sitting in the dojo, and would order them to leave. This is why judges studied with Sokaku. He could tell a person’s personality just by looking at him. I think he could do this because he had attained such a supreme mastery of martial arts.

What kind of advice did Sokaku give to you?

My father would say to me, “You are the only one who is truly devoted to me.” He said, “Everyone has deserted me because I am stubborn, but you followed me. You are my successor. The only thing that worries me is that you are good-natured, and that makes you a fool. This is your only fault.” I don’t really know if I am good-natured or not, but at any rate, Sokaku thought being good-natured was foolish [laughter]. In other words, I kindly teach this and that technique without any hesitation. I may end up choking myself. This is why he said I was a fool. Perhaps I must control my teaching to a certain degree. He said that was his only concern.

I lost my mother when I was thirteen. I had younger brothers, aged two, four, six and eight, and a fifteen-year-old sister. I experienced many hardships because my father would not return for over a year or sometimes even two. When he would leave, he would say, “Don’t expect me back after I have left.” He said such selfish things. He would also say, “Since you are my heir you must take care of everything.” He didn’t even send letters. We would have no communication with him at all.

Was the house in Shirataki the only one Sokaku had in Hokkaido?

I guess it was the only one, since he wasn’t very enthusiastic about owning houses.

Sokaku stayed in Shirataki longer than Ueshiba did. I was born in Shirataki, and according to the village records, Morihei arrived there in 1912. He first learned from Sokaku in 1915. Ueshiba went to Shirataki to do reclamation work when he was about 32 or 33 years old. He brought a number of second and third sons, who would not inherit from their families, and together they cultivated the undeveloped land. So you can see that Morihei Ueshiba was a splendid person even at such a young age.

Could you tell us something about the relationship between your father and Morihei Ueshiba after that time?

Since Ueshiba Sensei was one of Sokaku Takeda’s best pupils and had studied under him for a long time, I visited him first of all whenever I went Tokyo, although I haven’t been there since his death. I guess Sokaku Takeda loved Morihei Ueshiba best of all his students.

Sokaku was terribly worried when Ueshiba was arrested in Osaka [ in the aftermath of the second Omoto incident of 1935]. He asked Yukiyoshi Sagawa and I to go see how he was managing.

At that time, Ueshiba was under house arrest in Tanabe. When Sokaku heard my report that Ueshiba was fine, he replied, “That’s good.” He was always concerned about Morihei. He trusted him a great deal, and would call, “Ueshiba, Ueshiba,” whenever he had a problem. Ueshiba was a diligent student.

What were the Daito-ryu certificates that Ueshiba Sensei received?

Sokaku used to award traditional scrolls called mokuroku, ogi, and kaiden, but it’s quite a lot of work to write and present such scrolls. So now we give out dan ranks, not scrolls.

How many people have been licensed to teach Daito-ryu?

Not very many. Most people do not practice long enough. A few people have notations written beside their names in our directory, such as “Aikijujutsu,” “Aikijutsu,” “Ogi” or “Nito-ryu.” Usually people practiced up through the 118 techniques. You must practice very hard in order to get a license. What they learned in intensive training in the police departments was jujutsu as arrest techniques.

So for Ueshiba Sensei to have been licensed as an assistant instructor was quite something, wasn’t it?

That’s right. We have some instructors like Ueshiba, Kodo Horikawa, etc.

Takuma Hisa received the highest license, the menkyo kaiden, in 1939?

Yes, he did. He was originally a sumo wrestler and no one could beat him in sumo. He was about forty-three or four when he received his Daito-ryu menkyo. But when it came to the details of techniques, Ueshiba Sensei was better. Perhaps he studied for a much longer time with Sokaku.

Did Hisa Sensei practice something called Asahi-ryu?

That’s one of the names used before the art came to be called aikido. I believe the name aikido was not used until after World War II; it’s quite recent. Minoru Hirai was sent to the Butokukai as an instructor from the Ueshiba dojo in the early 1940s. Before then in the Osaka area, around 1936, the art was called Dai-Nihon Asahi-ryu.

I have seen the name Aiki Budo written in a program for a demonstration held in Manchuria in 1942. Shigemi Yonekawa [a pre-war student of Morihei Ueshiba] uses the name Aiki Budo. At other times it seems that people referred to the art as Ueshiba-ryu Jujutsu or Daito-ryu Jujutsu. In a scroll awarded to Minoru Mochizuki [now head of Yoseikan Budo] the name Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu is used. I understand that the art came to be called aikido sometime during the war under the influence of the Butokukai.

That’s correct. Minoru Hirai told me this when I met him in around 1945.

Did Sokaku have any relationship with the Butokukai?

No, he did not. The leaders of the Butokukai were, however, Sokaku’s students.

In our previous interview with you [AN#71-73], you said that Sokaku had associated with Jigoro Kano, the founder of judo. Could you tell us more about this?

Jigoro Kano and Sokaku Takeda were close friends, since both were martial artists of similar age. There was also a man named Shohachiro Noguchi who was the chairman of the Imperial Shobukai. The friendship among these three was famous. Noguchi also studied with Sokaku. The rea-son Kano sent Kenji Tomiki [founder of the Japan Aikido Association] and Minoru Mochizuki to Ueshiba, was because he was Sokaku’s student.

A man called Shiro Saigo was also one of Kano’s students. Sokaku met Kano through his acquaintance with Saigo. Shiro Saigo was the adopted son of Tanomo Saigo.

A number of years ago, Kozui Tsuruyama published a book entitled Aikido. How deep was Tsuruyama’s involvement in Daito-ryu?

At first he practiced at the Ueshiba dojo, but he came to Abashiri and stayed for a short while. I even have a photo of him. He sent me a copy of the book when he published it, but he wrote as if he had created the techniques himself. We didn’t have any special relationship with him. I taught him some of the basic techniques such as ikkajo. He says in his book that he learned from Takuma Hisa, who was a student of Sokaku Takeda, and then he created or inherited Nihonden Aikijujutsu. This is all in order to make money. It’s a bad thing when martial artists start telling lies. Many headmasters appear out of nowhere [laughter].

Tokimune Takeda Profile

Born 1916 in Hokkaido. Third son and successor of Sokaku Takeda, now headmaster of Daito-ryu Aiki Budo. Tokimune underwent extensive martial arts training as a youth under his father beginning at the age of nine in 1925. Completed the Hokkaido Police Officer Training Course in 1946, and in 1947 completed the police course in stick handling techniques. While a member of the police force, received several awards for outstanding work in arresting criminals. Joined the Yamada Fishery Co., Ltd., in December 1951 and worked there until his retirement in 1976. He established the Daitokan Dojo in Abashiri, Hokkaido in 1953, and classified Daito-ryu techniques, incorporating into them elements of Onoha Itto-ryu to create his own Daito-ryu Aiki Budo. Received the Cultural Social Education Award from Abashiri City on 3 November 1987.

This article is used with the permission of Aikido Journal and originally appeared in Aiki News #88 (Summer 1991).