John Goss is the head of one of the largest aikido dojos in the USA. In this interview, Goss gives his insights on the successful operation of a martial arts school and describes his newly-found interest in the mainstream Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu of Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei

What were the reasons for your taking up aikido in the first place?

In 1974 I saw a demonstration by Gozo Shioda Sensei of Yoshinkai Aikido in New York and was quite fascinated by the art. The thing I found interesting about aikido, especially the way Shioda Sensei did it, was the effortlessness of his techniques. He was taking four ukes and just throwing them around like they were nothing. Also, he was very small. I thought that he was a martial arts master no matter what the style. His dynamic movement, his precise techniques, and his personality were fascinating to me at the time. This led me to do some research into the art and want to find a teacher. It was very hard to find aikido people around at that time.

The first system of aikido you studied was Korindo Aikido, a system unfamiliar to most people. Would you explain something about this form of aikido?

I was attending Towson State University at the time and there was a Japanese gentlemen by the name of Dennis Mikata and we got to talking about martial arts in general and he expressed an interest in certain techniques of karate. Then I asked him if he had done any training and he said that he had done some aikido. We got together on the side to train in places like wrestling rooms, parks, or his house. I would show him how to do sweeps and takedowns karate-style and then he would show me aikido moves. I came to like aikido a lot more and eventually it became a one-sided thing where I started tapping his brain and getting more instruction in aikido than he was getting karate from me. The thing I liked about Mikata Sensei and the Korindo system was that it seemed like it was more related to jujutsu. It was very self-defense oriented. When I went to Japan for the first time I realized that Korindo aikido was quite rare. The Korindo group seemed to want to stay to themselves and not develop an empire. Even as a yudansha (black belt holder), it was tough to be allowed to train unless you wanted to dedicate yourself for a year or so. Minoru Hirai Sensei, the founder of this art, was himself quite old. Mikata Sensei’s lineage apparently came from his uncle’s side and he was a student of Hirai Sensei. With Korindo being as rare as it is, I decided to go ahead and change systems and concentrate on aikido. I pretty much had to go with the Aikikai because it is the largest aikido group. It was easier to get affiliation and instruction because of the large numbers of shihan they have.

How was it that you began to teach martial arts professionally?

Basically, I started teaching at YMCA’s, on a private basis, at recreational facilities, etc. on a part-time basis no more than two hours a week. In 1991, I was working for the Westinghouse Company and I was caught in a major downsizing and was laid off after 15 years of being with them. I thought I was a little too old to go out and find another job with similar pay and benefits and so I figured I would try to open a martial arts school and see if I could do it for a living.

Your dojo is located in Baltimore, Maryland and is a rather large and well-established school. Would you talk about some of the techniques you’ve used to develop a successful dojo?

Let me backtrack a little. I did have a karate school in the early 1980s, but it was open at night only. So I had operated a school before, but it was not on a full-time basis. I did, however, go through all of the red tape required in the State I live in so I was used to dealing with a martial arts business. But with aikido it was a different scenario. Most aikido dojos were clubs and if they were larger they were run by teachers from Japan on a non-profit basis. I took aikido and ran the school on a business-basis like a karate school with the same type of marketing, advertising, and the same ranking procedures using many colored belts. It seemed to work. I started off with ten students in 1991 and grew in one year to about 110. I went from one location with 1,100 square feet to our present location of 3,000 square feet. Along the way there are always some setbacks due to the mentality of people studying aikido, but it is coming around and I do see future growth.

I did try several things that worked for karate such as various promotionals to get people to come in the door. I tried newspaper, TV and radio commercials. TV was successful but very costly. I wouldn’t recommend people go that route unless they can afford it. Also, I discovered things that don’t work like Penny Saver magazine and Money Mailer. I spent a lot of money and didn’t get any responses. The format I finally settled on was to keep the dojo traditional, to keep contact with the Aikikai, and bring in instructors like Kubo Sensei and Kondo Sensei. We do have a few perks like family plans where if one member joins, there are discounts for other members. We’ve taken things that have worked and refined them and updated business practices. Also, we spoonfeed our students. We have a lot of black belts on the mat at the same time. Anyone with a problem we assist. If they feel they are getting bored, we give them an opportunity to participate in higher-level classes. I do feel that aikido has wonderful characteristics such as stress reduction, non-competition, self-development, and the philosophy of O-Sensei. I think the main obstacle in running aikido as a business is that it’s never been done that way before. If people look at the qualities of aikido and keep good sound business ethics and customer relationships it will definitely be profitable and educational. We have ended up sticking with a few things that work and anyone who would like to talk to me about this subject can call my dojo or e-mail me.

I believe you started making trips to Japan in the early 1990s. Would you talk about what drew you to Japan and what you did on these trips?

January 1993 was my first trip and it was sort of a “short pilgrimage.” I had a desire to train at various aikido dojos like the Nihon Korinkai and the Aikikai Hombu Dojo. I wanted to see what was happening at the headquarters of these styles and train with the masters. I suppose it was the typical Westerner’s mystical fascination with Asia. I wanted to get a short, sweet taste of that. I stayed about 10 days on that trip. I followed that up with another trip in May 1993 where I stayed for a full month. I trained at various dojos like the Aikikai, the Tendokan, the Yoshinkan, the Korinkai, etc. I was just dojo-hopping trying to get as much as I could from the different systems of aikido. You, Stanley, provided me with a lot of connections so far as the aikido world went. I think it was then that I first began to be interested in Daito-ryu. Those first two trips probably had the most influence on me.

My third trip was in 1995 and I took a group of students for the first time. We spent only ten days. Although we had planned to be there longer, we had to shorten our trip because of the high yen at that time. The fourth trip came in 1997 and that was strictly to visit Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei and train with him. We did visit the Aikikai one time to see the situation with Doshu and took a short trip to Kyoto and Hakone as a vacation.

I believe that on your second trip you first met Robert Kubo Sensei with whom you are now affiliated. Would you describe how that association came about?

I am now affiliated with Robert Kubo Sensei of the Aikikai and that association has continued now for nearly six years. I met Kubo Sensei through you at the 1993 demonstration of the Hashimoto Dojo of Igarashi Sensei. Kubo Sensei was very close to Igarashi Sensei and Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei and had come over to Japan for the demonstration. I happened to sit next to Kubo Sensei at the party afterward and had earlier watched his demonstration. I got to talking with him and found him to be a prince of a fellow. I was at that time in limbo in terms of my organizational affiliation. I had dealings with various aikido organizations over the years after Dennis Mikata left, but nothing worked out. I called Kubo Sensei after I got back to the States after speaking with him and expressed that I wanted to have a relationship with the Aikikai. When I had gone to the headquarters on my visits, it seemed that they wanted me to have a shihan to act as a go-between in order for them to deal with me. Basically, anyone was okay as long as it was an Aikikai shihan to represent me. At the time I had a very strong dojo with about 200 people. So Kubo Sensei invited me to join his group. He was very relaxed and comfortable with that. We invited him to Maryland in late 1993 for our first Aikikai testing for black belts. It went very smoothly and now Kubo Sensei comes once a year to our dojo. Also, I went to see him once in Hawaii.

We just hit it off. He doesn’t give me any pressure. He’ll correct me like a shihan should. For example, during our last testing he was really on me about certain techniques because I had many students testing for yudansha and was spreading myself thin in preparing them. Kubo Sensei has been great and I’ll always continue to deal with him. I learn a lot from him and that’s important. Considering his level, he makes learning very comfortable. If you’re comfortable you can absorb much more.

You did something highly unusual. After a long career in aikido, you began to develop a deep interest in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and you’ve hosted Katsuyuki Hondo Sensei two years in a row here in Baltimore. What were your motivations for wanting to begin to study Daito-ryu?

I began to have an interest back in 1993 because of your publication—Aiki News. You had articles on Daito-ryu and various teachers of the art. At first, I was mainly interested in the lineage of aikido. I wanted to find out what O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was involved in before the war. I’m sure you can relate to that! I started realizing that Daito-ryu had a lot to do with the technical makeup of aikido. Also, Korindo had a little jujutsu flavor probably because of Minoru Hirai Sensei’s running a jujutsu dojo prior to meeting O-Sensei in 1939. I think that I’ve always had a jujutsu element in my aikido. Mainly, Daito-ryu attracted me immensely because of its formality and seriousness and its extensive history going back to the Aizu clan. I really wanted to research the subject. There wasn’t enough Daito-ryu in the USA so I started watching Kondo Sensei’s instructional and demonstration videotapes and the more I watched them the more I liked the emphasis on the seriousness of the techniques. The techniques seemed to be a lot more effective. Being based in Baltimore I teach several police SWAT teams in Maryland and the techniques I teach have to be effective when applied. I love aikido and have been involved in it for a long time. I love my training and affiliations with Robert Kubo Sensei of Hawaii, but I feel that practicing Daito-ryu has made me feel young again. It has reawakened in me a real desire to train in the martial arts. Daito-ryu seems to me to be what martial arts are all about.

Kondo Sensei’s tapes really turned me on to Daito-ryu technically even more and I wanted to establish a connection with him. I liked his style and his mannerisms on the tapes and I wanted to stay with the mainline of the art.

The story of how you first established contact with Kondo Sensei and gained his confidence to the point that he was willing to accept your invitation to come to Baltimore is quite interesting. Would you describe how this happened?

Of course, most of my connections with Kubo Sensei, Kondo Sensei, and others came through you, Stanley. In the case of Kondo Sensei, you and I talked for some time and you eventually understood that I was serious about wanting to get involved in Daito-ryu. I really wanted to meet Kondo Sensei and to do Daito-ryu by the rules. I wanted to start from the bottom and go all the way up. I don’t want to take any shortcuts or be a “paper tiger” and rank doesn’t mean anything to me. I already have rank in aikido at this point. The major thing for me is the dissemination of mainline Daito-ryu under Kondo Sensei. You introduced me to Kondo Sensei in May 1997 when you invited me out to California and I brought Kondo Sensei in from Japan. The three of us met together and I think his confidence really came from knowing you. I guess that Sensei felt, “If Stan’s says it’s okay, then this guy must be okay.” After the first seminar, I think Kondo Sensei saw how we went to Japan to train, and kept communicating via e-mail and by phone and believed that I was serious, and that I wouldn’t be using him. He knew that there wasn’t an angle or a catch to this and that I just wanted to study Daito-ryu.

Kondo Sensei gave his first USA seminar here a year ago and you took a group of students to Japan in June of this year. Of course, we’ve just finished with the second seminar. This time Kondo Sensei gave you authorization to conduct a Daito-ryu Study Group. There is only one qualified instructor in the USA from the mainline school and no one on the east coast. You need to expose people to the basics of the art and continue to learn the fundamentals yourself so that, hopefully, in the future there will be someone qualified to teach and that the art will become solidly established in the USA. Can you tell us how you plan to proceed with the Study Group now that the groundwork has been laid?

Like I said, I wanted to begin my study of Daito-ryu from scratch. Just because I’m a godan in aikido doesn’t mean that it has anything to do with Daito-ryu. I foresee continuing with what we have been doing. We already have had an informal group at Aikido of Maryland consisting of a handful of yudansha and other higher kyu ranked students interested in Daito-ryu. I think we’ll set aside a time period of several hours a week to go over the ikkajo techniques again and again. We’ll take the material Kondo Sensei presented during his seminars, while we were in Japan, and from his videotapes, and go over and over it until we meet with Kondo Sensei’s approval. So far as the connection with him is concerned, I plan to bring him over as often as possible. I would also like to bring over some of his leading students for lengthy stays and do intensive workshops during the period they are here. Taking into consideration time and financial factors, we’ll try to get to Japan as much as possible. My plan is to simply proceed keeping the same kind of relationship with Sensei. I want to keep the Study Group active weekly getting a serious handful of students who really want to practice Daito-ryu with us. I’d also like to welcome people from the seminar from out of the area who would like to come down and work with us. I like this arrangement because there is no pressure on me as someone with rank in Daito-ryu. I don’t have a shingle up and I’m not trying to give out any scrolls. I just want to go ahead and practice martial arts and Daito-ryu is the one I want to study. I do have an aikido dojo that I operate full-time and my study of aikido is still very much there, but Daito-ryu has become a passion with me at this point.

Those who are somewhat familiar with aikido history know about Daito-ryu, but by and large the art is not very well-known in Japan and even less abroad. Therefore, one might wonder who the people are that attended the Daito-ryu seminars here in Baltimore in the last two years. What kinds of backgrounds are they from?

From what I’ve seen from the two seminars, I think the main people interested in Daito-ryu and those who are interested in the classical martial arts. Daito-ryu, even in its basics, seems to me to be a martial artist’s martial art. Your everyday person is not going to want to do Daito-ryu. It’s much deeper than that. It really does require you to have some other training. Not to do Daito-ryu, but to understand it better. I think the kind of people who have attended the seminar have been people like myself who studied O-Sensei’s lineage, again in your publications mainly! Also, some jujutsu people who are interested in a truly authentic classical art participated. We’ve even had some karateka who are involved in traditional karate styles. If we can continue to get people like that, I think the art can be properly disseminated in this country. I don’t think there will be a problem with Daito-ryu growing at that point. The danger would be people coming in and getting bits and pieces from Kondo Sensei’s seminars or videotapes and then going out and debasing his teachings and calling it Daito-ryu. My feeling is that this Study Group will eliminate a lot of that type of activity. I really want to monitor who joins the group and insure that they are serious about their study of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

The seminar we just finished was very tightly organized in terms of Kondo Sensei’s teaching where he had a theme. Would you tell us about this theme and how it may have helped the participants to grasp the essential points of Daito-ryu?

We had a lot of experience from the 1997 seminar. We learned what to do and what not to do. When you bring someone in for the first time you have to deal with language problems and the fact that some people there are just out to steal techniques. The theme of the 1998 seminar was “What is aiki?” From what I can see, Westerners need some sort of theme they can focus on and then they will really get into training. I talked to Kondo Sensei before the seminar and gave him some of the feedback we had from last year, both positive and negative. One of the comments I got second-handed about the 1997 seminar was, “Where is the aiki? I see all jujutsu.” I really felt that trying to fit the entire ikkajo series in a weekend seminar was too difficult. I thought that if Sensei could come up with a theme that he felt comfortable with and could still get across the message of Daito-ryu that that would make for a very successful seminar in terms of the knowledge that would be transmitted to us. The “What is aiki” theme worked like a charm! Kondo Sensei took the same techniques he taught last year, that is, the tachiai (standing techniques) of the ikkajo series, as the theme and then showed variations of these within the theme. I never had a more excited group of people at a seminar! For me it was the most successful seminar all around that I’ve ever been to in terms of participation and knowledge gained. That’s how we dealt with the situation this year. I think in the future we’ll do it the same way. Sensei, too, liked the idea of a theme and it gave him something to focus on. I think Daito-ryu is growing in the U.S. at a suitable rate. In the future, if I’m ever qualified as an instructor, I feel I’ll have a strong base.

John Goss may be contacted via the Aiki Martial Arts Institute.

This article is used with the permission of Aikido Journal and originally appeared in Aikido Journal #116 (1999).