Interview with Tokimune Takeda
by Stanley Pranin
The following article was prepared with the kind assistance of Brian Workman of the USA
Profile of Tokimune Takeda Soke
Tokimune Takeda Sensei was born in Shimo Yubetsu Hokkaido in 1916. He received strict instruction in arts such as kenjutsu and Daito-ryu aikijujutsu from his father. After the war, he became a police officer and distinguished himself as a detective. Upon retirement, he became the director of the Yamada Suisan Company.
In 1954 he established the Daitokan Dojo and dedicated himself to teaching. He retired from business in 1976 and since then has taught Daito-ryu all over Japan. There are now some 60 affiliated dojos and clubs in various parts of the country.
Tokimune Takeda: Mr. Ueshiba practiced a great deal. This is well recorded in the “eimeiroku” (student enrollment book) kept by Sokaku Takeda. He studied extensively and was really enthusiastic. He was the favorite student of Sokaku. However, I was the one who was most scolded by Sokaku. Morihei Ueshiba was the second most scolded after me. Since I was his son, I wasn’t so bothered when Sokaku scolded me, but I imagine that Mr. Ueshiba must have been greatly affected since he wasn’t a family relation. As Sokaku grew older, he started having hearing difficulty. He started to shout in a loud voice because he couldn’t hear well. One of the reasons I accompanied my father was to act as his interpreter. Since he spoke with an Aizu accent, he couldn’t make himself understood even by talking in a loud voice. (Laughter) I began to accompany him when I was around 14 or 15 until I became about 20.
He spoke so loudly you could hear him even from outside the front door. And then his voice was not normal and just hearing it surprised people. He was very short, though. (Laughter) He was not the sort who would dress casually as we do nowadays. He always wore a “hakama” (pleated skirt) and kept himself neat. Since he was a product of an earlier age, his attitude was very different from ours.
Aiki News: When did Ueshiba Sensei meet Sokaku Sensei for the first time?
In 1915. I understand they met each other at Hisada Inn in the town of Engaru. I was very small at that time. It seems that Mr. Ueshiba came to Hokkaido to cultivate the land when he was in his twenties. He gathered together the second and third children of families, not the eldest sons, and they settled in Hokkaido. He was still young so I imagine it must have been quite difficult for him. Then he studied Daito-ryu with my father from 1915 through 1919, about 5 years, and when my father began to travel around, he would accompany him. Since Sokaku Takeda traveled about instructing police, judges and that type of person, Mr. Ueshiba probably thought that the art was great and that he wouldn’t have to engage in any farming work if he mastered it. He was very devoted to the art and also quite talkative. When Sokaku was teaching a group of judges and public prosecutors in Hakodate, Mr. Ueshiba happened to be his companion and assisted in their instruction. He was in his thirties then. He taught judges at this young age. It was difficult to rise to that position in those days. One wasn’t employed by the police in those days unless a descendent of a samurai. They stuck to formality. It was a great thing to teach judges at such a young age.
You mentioned that Sokaku Sensei was teaching at the Hisada Inn in 1915…
Yes. My father stayed at the Hisada Inn and taught. He would teach for periods of ten days at a time, that is, one course lasted for ten days. It was not possible to spread the art because unfortunately, Sokaku only traveled around to teach and didn’t establish any branch dojos. Although it has only been ten years since I began to teach seriously, whenever I go somewhere to teach and everything goes smoothly, I always make it a rule to have the group set up a branch dojo. I tell my students to go out and actively teach after they reach the level of about 2nd dan. At present, we have about 2,280 members in our organization. However, Sokaku Takeda was not that type of person. At that time, only Sokaku Takeda taught. Also, students had to sign their names in the “eimeiroku” each time they participated in a course. Daito-ryu was never allowed to be taught to outsiders. Since these are different times, I have removed the dangerous techniques from the art and am only teaching those that can be practiced by people in general in an easily understood manner.
Sokaku Takeda taught for a very long time and instructed about 30,000 students. His main students were police. In a given police department there are a maximum of about 100 personnel. Once a month they have a briefing-type meeting for their work. This brings together many police officers from the smaller substations. It was for such occasions that Sokaku was invited to teach. He directly taught a huge number of people.
At one particular such seminar, Sokaku did something very puzzling. He pointed out several individuals among the many policemen and told them to leave. Then he instructed the others. After the course was over, the police chief asked why he had required three or four officers to leave before the practice. Sokaku looked at him silently and then said:
“You don’t understand that? One of them is a heavy drinker and has been causing you problems, hasn’t he? How can I teach a person like that? One of the others is a woman chaser, isn’t he? That’s why I didn’t teach him. Then the other one has been disobeying you and you have been having a hard time handling him, haven’t you? I can’t teach people like that!”
Sokaku met all of these people for the first time so the police chief was really surprised. Everyone would follow Sokaku because he could do such things. One of the most important things for judges is to be able to judge people and Sokaku was able to do that. It is impossible to imitate him. I began to understand the importance of judging a person’s character when I became a detective. We read people’s characters by their faces. Of course, we verify their acts but an ability to read faces is essential. Although I read books on the subject, it is not an easy one to master. There is no way I can tell a person to leave at the first meeting.
Sokaku was a strict person and his manner of teaching the sword was strict. Everyone was powerless against him. So although Sokaku allowed his partner to wear a face guard, he never did so himself. When he was visited by journalists, he never showed techniques for them. He was very strict about the art because it was applied to police tactics.
What sort of contact did Ueshiba Sensei have with Sokaku Sensei after their initial meeting at the inn?
We can tell by checking the eimeiroku. Sokaku only received those amounts of money recorded in the eimeiroku. I have all of those records. You can tell by looking at it. (Looking at the eimeiroku) Here it says, “Morihei Ueshiba, 10 Yen”. He didn’t want people later to claim they had paid him 50 or 100 Yen, so he had them write it in the book. He was not the usual budo man. It is sometimes said that he charged several hundred Yen for one technique, which is equivalent to several hundreds of dollars, but that is not true. He charged 10 Yen per person for the ten-day seminars he offered. His rate for police, however, was 5 Yen since it had to do with their work. People in general were charged 10 Yen.
What was the art called at that time?
“Aikijujutsu”, “Aiki” is also included in Daito-ryu. It after all deals with “go no sen” (self-defense). We don’t have techniques where the criminal grabs our hand and we then throw him. In reality when the police catch a criminal, they have to tie him up with a rope or apply handcuffs. So we never tell our partners to grab our hand or lapel during practice. These are self-defense techniques. For us “go no sen” is simply “Aiki” and “sensen” is “kiai”. Without “kiai” you cannot defeat your opponent. (Again looking at the eimeiroku) Mr. Ueshiba practiced quite a lot, didn’t he? This was the first time, here the second, and this the third. Here are the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th times… Here is the 8th seminar where Mr. Ueshiba participated as Sokaku’s assistant. He had 70 days practice as a student altogether. So he really did practice a lot. Here is yet another entry, the 9th time.
This is quite different from what has been written about the subject up until now isn’t it?
Yes. Mr. Ueshiba accompanied Sokaku a great deal. It was more important to travel with Sokaku than to study with him during the regular practice time. And what’s more, he also taught as Sokaku’s assistant.
So Ueshiba Sensei appears as the assistant of Sokaku Sensei starting from this 8th seminar…
That’s right. He started accompanying him from that time.
Was it around then that Ueshiba Sensei received his assistant instructor’s (kyoju dairi) certificate?
Actually, it was much later. He went back to Honshu (the main island) before receiving it. It is recorded right here. Although Morihei Ueshiba stated that he learned the “Way of Budo” from Sokaku Takeda, he surely learned techniques also.
If I remember correctly, my mother and I went to Kyoto after my father when I was six years old. We stayed at the Ueshiba Juku (school) for a long time. I would watch the training even though I was small. Oh, here it is… This is the record of our stay in Kyoto. We were there for a long time, for about two or three months. Here it says that the students of the Ueshiba Juku received instruction in Daito-ryu Jujutsu under Sokaku Takeda Sensei. Many of the students were Omoto believers. Here, for example, is Masaharu Taniguchi of “Seicho no Ie,” you see? People like him also learned the art. Look at this, it says “Morihei Ueshiba.” It is clearly written, the training ran from April 28 to September 15, 1922. Quite a long time. Mr. Ueshiba was also teaching as an assistant then. This was in Ayabe in Kyoto Prefecture. The place was a mission house of the Omoto religion. Sokaku didn’t like Omoto very much so it seems he referred to it as Morihei Ueshiba’s “villa”.
So Sokaku Sensei taught daily from April 28 to September 15?
That’s right. Sokaku taught together with Ueshiba. This is his assistant instructor’s certificate. It is in Morihei Ueshiba Sensei’s own handwriting and says as follows:
In the instruction of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, it is necessary to ensure that students are of good conduct. Have the students write their names, addresses, age, the name of the dojo, the number of days studied and have them affix their seals. Charge them three Yen each as a registration fee and pay it to Takeda Sensei.
This is recorded on September 15, 1922. Everyone wrote this when receiving their assistant instructor’s certificate. It is the same as setting up what we call today a branch dojo. Sokaku awarded certificates in the Taisho period (1912-1925) too. Oh yes, I do have someone’s certificate dated about 1915. I don’t have Mr. Ueshiba’s certificate though. Anyway, he practiced a great deal. He practiced the most of anyone. He was very enthusiastic and my father taught him intensely.
Here is a document from 1907 and here is one for the Sendai police dated 1903. I also have documents older than this. They are all police documents. The police practiced jujutsu (“kiai” — attacking forms) and they don’t use the word “aiki”. We however, use the term to mean self-defense for people in general. We employ the term “aiki” because it comprises self-defense techniques. In defending ourselves, we don’t initiate the attack. For example, techniques where you throw your opponent who is standing while you are seated only exist in Daito-ryu. This is what Sokaku had been saying from before. You remain seated but throw your opponent only when you are attacked. This is what we call “aiki.” Therefore, the term “Aikido” employed by people in general refers to techniques used only when you are attacked. In Daito-ryu, when we use a technique for self-defense, we call it “aiki”.
There is an old book entitled Aiki no Jutsu. Some people say that Sokaku Takeda Sensei was in some way connected with its publication. Do you know anything about this?
Sokaku Takeda couldn’t write! (Laughter) When he had to write something, he had someone do it for him. His father thought it would be necessary for children to be able to write in the future and so he opened his temple to the public and started a private temple elementary school during the Edo period. He also taught Sokaku. But his son was a strange child and would cause a great stir by disappearing suddenly or causing other people trouble. In the end, Sokaku’s father expelled his own son from the school. Sokaku defied his father declaring that he would not write himself but have others write for him. When his father, Sokichi retorted angrily, “Who would want to write for you!”, Sokaku insisted that he would have someone do it for him. And that is exactly what he did. What’s more, he had judges and public prosecutors do so. You know it was also quite unusual for police to sign their names. I was a police detective and I know the situation well. It was really extraordinary that he made the police and descendants of samurai sign their names and affix their seals in the eimeiroku. Still, in my period, the police would never even give their namecards. They would be in big trouble if someone misused them. But Sokaku Takeda required them to write their names in the Meiji period (ended 1911).
Did he have his students sign before or after the training?
On the last day of training. (Looking at the eimeiroku) Many of Mr. Ueshiba’s students also learned at Ayabe. Vice-Admiral Seikyo Asano also studied the art. At that time, there were 40 students. When Sokaku was about to leave, Onisaburo Deguchi gave Sokaku 4,000 Yen through Morihei Ueshiba as a parting gift. However, Ueshiba gave only 100 Yen to Sokaku and this is recorded in the eimeiroku and kept with the rest. Later, Onisaburo asked Vice-Admiral Asano to look into the matter and what Mr. Ueshiba had done was discovered.
Have you found any particularly interesting books written on Daito-ryu?
Although many books have been written, I have only read a few of them. Since everyone writes from their own subjective viewpoints, it would be inappropriate if I expressed my opinion regarding these books. In any event, we publish a dojo newsletter. It is only published four times a year, but through it, I hope that our members will understand the truth. Actually, I didn’t want to send this newsletter to people outside of our group, but since you were so enthusiastic, I decided to send you copies. I would like to transmit correct information. As a martial artist, I don’t think it is a good thing to be criticized too much or to criticize from your side either. What I have been saying is all based on documents. I don’t write anything which is not documented. (Looking at the eimeiroku again) This is also an entry concerning Morihei Ueshiba. 1931 is the last year he practiced with Sokaku. It reads:
“I received instruction in the 84 techniques of Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu from Takeda Sensei in my home. April 7, 1931.”
(to be continued)
Photo #1: Page is enrollment book of Sokaku Takeda reads: “Kitami, Kami Yubetsu-mura, Shirataki (probably O-Sensei’s address), Fee: 10 Yen, Ueshiba Morihei; April 4, 1915; Kitami no Kuni, Engaru City Urban District (site of seminar”.
Photo #2: Copy of assistant instructor’s certificate in possession of Tokimune Takeda awarded to O-Sensei: “Assistant Instructor, Ueshiba Morihei. In the instruction of Daito-ryu Aiki-Jujutsu, it is necessary to ensure that students are of good conduct. Have students write their names, addresses, age, the name of the dojo, the number of days studied and have them affix their seals. Charge them three Yen each as a registration fee and pay it to Takeda Sensei, September 15, 1922.”
This article is used with the permission of Aikido Journal and originally appeared in Aiki News #71 (June 1986).





