Interview with John Goss, Part One: Meeting Kondo Sensei

March 18^th, 2008

Ted Howell: Goss Sensei, when did you become interested in Daito- ryu?

Well, actually my interest in Daito-ryu began when I started reading Stanley Pranin’s articles about the origin of aikido, back in the late 80’s and early 90’s, in the Aiki News Magazine. The more I read about the history and lineage of Daito-ryu, about Sokaku Takeda and Tokimune Sensei and what O’Sensei had studied for many years, the more my interest in the origins and development of aiki grew.

I guess you could say that it’s all about aikibudo and the origins of modern aikido. My first thoughts were about how to supplement my aikido. After reading about Daito-ryu and its impact on Ueshiba Sensei, I really believed it to be important to retrace the history of aiki and study the evolution of aiki from Daito-ryu to modern day aikido. I really wanted to get a grasp on the concept of aiki, as was taught to Morihei Ueshiba by Sokaku Takeda Sensei.

Minoru Hirai’s Korindo was influenced by Ueshiba’s teachings around World War II and I thought it would be beneficial to gain an understanding of aiki as it was being taught at that time. It’s interesting (laughter), after being involved with the Aikikai for a number of years, studying Daito-ryu under Kondo Sensei really kicked me back into gear with my Korindo. The jujutsu flavor of my aikido was starting to mellow a bit. While under the Aikikai, I tried to fit in, but found it to be somewhat difficult. Obviously, there is a tremendous jujutsu influence in Korindo Aikido and Daito-ryu just put me back into the proper mindset. Going back to my roots was refreshing, but it later proved to be troublesome with my Aikikai connections.

What was your first experience with Daito-ryu?

My first experience with Daito-ryu was in 1991 when I hosted a seminar with Roy Goldberg Sensei of the Kodokai. I’m trying to remember, I believe it was a weekend seminar in the fall, well, you were there (laugh). So I guess you could say that my interest in Daito-ryu goes back at least 17 or 18 years.

Shortly after that seminar, in 1992, I participated in an event called the Aikijujutsu Friendship Festival, held in the Washington, DC area and was asked to teach Korindo Aikido as a missing link between aikijujutsu and modern day aikido. Although there were a few legitimate teachers of various arts there, I realized what was being called aikijujutsu was not the traditional aikijujutsu I was looking for.

So you requested to be directed to a reputable teacher?

Actually, after speaking with Stan and later, Seagal Sensei, the connections between Daito-ryu and aikido became more and more apparent. After a while, I just knew I had to study Daito-ryu. So I tried to get my hands on everything I could, regarding Daito-ryu and when I started watching videotapes of different teachers, Kondo Sensei was the one who really stood out and turned me on, so to speak.

I believe we (Stan Pranin and John Goss) started to discuss Kondo Sensei about 1995. And then at the end of 1996, I remember— because it was right after my father died—we started discussing the aspect of bringing mainline Daito-ryu to the US. I guess ending up with Kondo Sensei had a lot to due with Stan’s referral. He said if I wanted to learn mainline Daito-ryu, Kondo Sensei was the way to go. And I guess it was also through Stan’s referral, of me, that Kondo Sensei agreed to meet.

Meeting Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei

In early spring, I believe March, of 1997, Stan and I arranged for Kondo Sensei to fly into Los Angeles so that we could meet. And over the course of about a week, we discussed the possibility of me hosting a seminar with Sensei. Of course Stan interpreted our conversations, but we met several times throughout the week. Sensei demonstrated Daito-ryu technique every day; while at breakfast, lunch, in Stan’s house, even at the shopping mall. From the very first day, I was turned on to Daito-ryu and Sensei’s passion for teaching.

From the first time he put his hands on me, I knew he was the real deal. I remember Sensei was demonstrating Daito-ryu ippondori in Stan’s yard and he put Stan’s face right in the dirt. And then planted my face in the dirt by pinning my neck to the ground with his shin. I was so far down that I was actually watching ants walking in front of my face! After that, Stan looked over at me and said, “John, this isn’t aikido.” (laughing in retrospect) I guess Stan was basically saying, get ready for a new dimension of pain (laugh). Once Sensei has his hands on you, you’re done!

One day, Stan’s cousin had arranged for all of us to go on a hot air balloon ride, but due to the weather it got cancelled. So we decided to go shopping and ended up at a mall. I guess we were early because the inside of the mall was open, but none of the stores were open yet. So we went to sit down to eat at this small delicatessen, a little café area that was open serving breakfast. But before we ordered, Sensei said something to Stan and then Stan told me that Sensei wanted me to follow him.

So then Sensei lead me to the center of the mall where there was a little courtyard and we began to discuss aspects of Daito-ryu and aikido. I asked him questions about the technical influences of Daito-ryu found in aikido, such as ikkyo, nikyo and sankyo. And when I questioned Sensei about the origins of nikyo, he demonstrated a shutozume, but then converted it over to a wakizumeotoshi and dropped me right into one of the park benches, putting it in like he’s on the mat! And we’re in the center of the mall. When I hit the bench, it made a loud bang, and he didn’t let me go either, he just continued to pin me. Then all of a sudden, I look up and see two big security guards walking over to us. Sensei let me up, looked at me and then looked over at them. Well, as soon as Sensei glared at them, they stopped in their tracks, about fifteen to twenty feet away from us. After seeing that we weren’t fighting, one of the guards said, you can’t be doing that in here, (laughter) but they still didn’t walk any closer. After I explained that everything was cool and they walked away, Sensei looked over at me and said, they think I’m crazy and I said yeah, we are crazy, Sensei (laughter). Everyday was like that; it was a great experience. After a week of discussions and hands on teaching, Sensei agreed to come to the United States and allow me to host the first official North American Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu seminar in fall of 1997.

First Mainline Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Seminar in the US

So yes, Sensei agreed to come back and teach a Daito-ryu seminar in Maryland later that year. The seminar was supported by Aiki News and Stan came to help coordinate everything with Sensei. Mark Sumi, who had recently returned to the United States after spending about nine years in Japan training under Kondo Sensei, came as well. But at that time, I believe Mark had been inactive due to his getting a job in law enforcement. So, Mark Sumi came as Sensei’s uke, Derek Steel came as the interpreter and Stan Pranin came for Aiki News. It ended up being an intensive seminar with Sensei teaching up to six hours a day. The first seminar was three days long with a total of fifteen hours of instruction.

Who attended?

Well, we had people attend from all over. From New York, the Maryland / DC area, some people from the southern and mid-west United States as well as Canada. In that group, there were a lot of so -called aikijujutsu guys, but we also had guys from Aikikai Aikido, Yoshinkan Aikido and, I believe, Yoseikan Budo. I don’t want to mention any names, but the seminar was attended by a number of guys claiming high ranks in aikijujutsu. It was quite clear a number of them had been going on with bogus charlatan Daito-ryu / aikijujutsu stuff for years and, during the seminar, Sensei called them out!

One of these guys claimed to have a direct lineage to Sokaku Takeda and presented his information, along with names of teachers to Sensei and Stanley Pranin. And, of course, Sensei told him outright that it was a bogus lineage and that the names he presented were fraudulent. Sensei tried to be polite about it, but after a number of these guys continued to deny the truth, he at one point started to yell and publicly scold them.

What was taught?

Well, Sensei mainly taught the tachiai from the techniques of ikkajo. Throughout the seminar though, Sensei taught various oyo waza, just to give us a flavor of the different possibilities from the basics. Although he did not teach much from the different curricula, Sensei demonstrated techniques throughout the hiden mokuroku and the goshinyo no te. Sensei was very enthusiastic and you could see that he is very passionate about teaching Daito-ryu correctly. The first seminar was an eye opener for many people.

The above interview was conducted and edited by Ted Howell.